"The 13 colonies cam here for religious freedom. Not for freedom without religion. Most communities were established with their specific religion. Yes, the constitution was designed to not include God, but that was in a mindset that most people would still uphold some sort of religion in their own way with a focus on God as it was in those days. Not to do away with God completely. The founding fathers used the Bible to help frame the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence.

"Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation and people;

Whereas deeply held religious convictions springing from the Holy Scriptures led to the early settlement of our Nation;

Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the constitution of the United States;
Whereas many of our great national leaders -- among them Presidents Washington, Jackson, Lincoln and Wilson -- paid tribute to the surpassing influence of the Bible in our country's development, as the words of President Jackson that the Bible is 'the rock on which our Republic rests'..." Public Law 97-280, passed on Oct. 4, 1982

"The Bible and its teachings helped form the basis for the Founding Fathers' abiding belief in the inalienable rights of the individual, rights which they found implicit in the Bible's teachings of the inherent worth and dignity of each individual. This same sense of man patterned the convictions of those who framed the English system of law inherited by our own Nation, as well as the ideals set forth in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution." Ronald Reagan"

"The Puritans did not come here not for religious Freedom. They came here to escape the persecution they were enduring in their own home country. Just as today....it isn't the Freedom of belonging to a religion that gets THE PEOPLE protection under the Constitution....the protections came into existance to protect the people from being persecuted for whatever one believes in."

"Had we not won the war against England, there is a good chance you would not be allowed to be gay and open about it right now. But who knows, that's just hypothetical."

"But we still really AREN'T allowed to be open about being gay. We risk being tied to fences in fields and beaten to death. Being beaten to death with fire extinguishers. Being beaten by police officers, shot in our cars. We risk being fired from our jobs. We can't serve in the military. The Catholic Church (I'm a Catholic) has created a litmus test for clergy. Gay men can't be any kind of donor (ie blood or bone marrow). We risk execution in some countries just for exhibiting any kind of hint of being gay.

So you see...if we want to be treated as equals we CAN'T be gay or be open about being gay. That's the point of this whole fight we're fighting right now."

"You can serve in the military, you just cant be open about your sexuality. I served in the military, I did not want a gay man in the shower with me and 20 other guys, no different than 20 women want to take a shower with a guy. That makes sense. Only other way to do it is segregate gays from straights at shower time."

"It's soooo easy to put the kabosh on a conversation, when the misinformed post many rhetorically based opinions that an educated person can see right thru. The Puritans came here to escape and receive the protection FROM being persecuted period. The Constitution does NOT give anyone the right to belong to any religious organization...it ONLY extends the right NOT to be persecuted for whatever faith and belief they hold to. Your argument that not many homosexuals were persecuted by the C of E and others did not want to be taxed and thus forced to belong to the CofE. Clouding the issue with hypotheticals ain'gonna cut it!
Happy to hear you have such a great relationship with your friends and family.....must be nice."

"So it is egotistical for a woman to assume that a man wants to look at her in a shower?

BTW, in boot cam showering in a room full of people is the way it is done."

"What faith were you true to before you became an agnostic? How long were you an agnostic? Why did you choose Roman Catholicism? Please we are only trying to be civil and reach some common ground here. Getting to know you online in chat based forum is a long and tedious undertaking and one needs to protect oneself from modern day Sadducee's and Pharisee's. It is only fair to a establish a true rapport with those trying honestly to get a grip on the issues.
"

"I was raised in a Church of Christ. A strict sola scriptura Church that does not even allow musical instruments, not even for a wedding. I was there until my late teens, sometime during my early-mid twenties I became agnostic and just did not care anymore.

I just started going to a RC Church. it was not really a decision I made, but more that I felt. I did it without even questioning what they preach, it was just something I felt I was being called to. I've never known a Catholic person my whole life, my town just got a Catholic Church a few years ago, and it is mostly hispanics.

I am 30 now, I was agnostic for probably the last 5 or 6 years of my life, probably one of my greatest sins I feel."

"Attack "Church and State Separation",

The Establishment Clause should be a tool we use to fight the encroachment of religious ideals and/or doctrines into government.
Perhaps a concerted effort to stop the use of Sectarian prayers at City/County and State Council/Commission meetings will have an impact of giving them a taste of their own medicine. I live in Northern AZ and the LDS Church here is very strong in politics. Shutting down their prayers would hopefully have the impact of showing them "you get what you sow". The ACLU has already filed suits in many locations and the US Supreme Court has already ruled in favor of stopping these kinds of prayers. The city attorney here told the council that it is a "slam dunk" for their prayers to be stopped and made to be NON-Sectarian. A bunch of LDS and Catholic almost cried here because of a letter the city got asking them to stop with the fundamentalist "In Jesus Name" type prayer used in the invocations at the city council meetings.

The establishment of religion clause means at least this:
Neither a state nor the federal government may set up a church. Neither can pass laws that aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion... . Neither a state nor the federal government may, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa.
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=about_firstamd

ACLU complaint form;
http://www.acluaz.org/IntakeForm.pdf




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