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Russ_and_Robert |
40. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 12:19 PM EST
"No, no...I should have elaborated.Again we want to come to some common ground! Pleasing any Church's code of morality and beliefs without having knowledge of those codes of morality and beliefs sounds like feelings ..again..and feelings are not the same as beliefs. The Jehovah still to this day are strict adherrants to the dogma that the Jehovah faith is the ONLY and truest of all religions and ALL others bear false witness....you avoid the tough parts of queries ...and go for an obscure argument that concludes that the Pope is infallible...is that is the case for one Pope...has it been true for all Popes? And finally before, I go milk our cows, we wonder if you recite the Apostle's Creed? 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Blaiden1 |
41. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 12:58 PM EST
"Again we want to come to some common ground! Pleasing any Church's code of morality and beliefs without having knowledge of those codes of morality and beliefs sounds like feelings ..again..and feelings are not the same as beliefs.I do not have a full knowledge and understanding of the RC's beliefs. I'm pretty sure I know their morals. You sound like you want to downplay feelings, if that is the case then why be gay, if you have feelings towards the same sex, why act on it if it is imoral and frowned upon by the majority? BTW, there are many men out there that I think are attractive, I could never bring myself to even consider a relationship with another man though. Damn, I wish I looked like Brad Pitt....anyway. Just about every faith can argue for themselves and their beliefs. That is the problem, everyone has taken the Bible and twisted it into what they want it to say. What the RC believes is that the Bible should not be up to individual interpretation, and I agree with them. A man that took a viscious beating and died so that you and I could have the ability to go to heaven. 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Blaiden1 |
42. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 1:00 PM EST
Oh, btw...my protestant Church never taught us anything on the Aposlte's Creed. Do not know much about it.
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Russ_and_Robert |
43. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 1:57 PM EST
"I do not have a full knowledge and understanding of the RC's beliefs. I'm pretty sure I know their morals. You sound like you want to downplay feelings, if that is the case then why be gay, if you have feelings towards the same sex, why act on it if it is imoral and frowned upon by the majority? BTW, there are many men out there that I think are attractive, I could never bring myself to even consider a relationship with another man though. Damn, I wish I looked like Brad Pitt....anyway.We seem to be at a stalemate here, having reduced the argument down to beliefs versus feelings. We are far from any understanding of what you believe as opposed to what you are feeliing. In addition you state;the RC believes is that the Bible should not be up to individual interpretation. You agreed with them? Answer why you agreed with them and we will continue conversing about this one single Posting . Instead of coming up with little bits of your feelings that keep morphing down a different road...finish a query before you start adding to your already confusing set of morals and values you post on many boards expressing your feelings. I do not feel gay....I am gay ! Feelings are cute and fuzzy...being gay isn't as easy as you make it out to be. I find some women attractive too ...but I could never consider myself being in a relationship with a woman though...I would be a liar for sure. A socially acceptable liar...but a liar nonetheless. But we certainly admire you for seeking out knowledge! Shouldn't you also be seeking out the knowledge of your newly found renewed faith? 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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conservativeidealist |
44. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 2:29 PM EST
The separation of church and state was begun mainly to keep the equivalent of something like the King of England declaring himself head of the Church of England from occuring. In this sense I would think it more a protection for religion then one against, but it is also true that one religious faction should not dominate the political field. That is the idea of Large Republic, that numerous factions will control the smaller without jeopardizing the rights of the individual and the good of the whole.The origin of the "wall" between Church and State was not officially recognized until a court case used it as backing for a decision (I forget which one). Originally the metaphor came from a letter that an irate Thomas Jefferson wrote after losing the election because he was branded a "heretic" by his opponent. The fact that it has been included into law doesn't seem all bad, but the metaphor chosen is misleading and can lead to a misunderstanding of the actual separation. I think the separation is yet another of the checks and balances that keep the country running. So a government keeps corruption of and by religion in check by keeping it within the lines of the law, such as not allowing religions to persecute other groups. Conversely, a religion influences eradication of government corruption by instilling moral values in its congregation. The people then vote according to their beliefs, exercising agency and making the government accountable to the people. Thus, the false idea of a “wall of separation” crumbles as the true system of the interrelationship between government and religion is revealed 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Blaiden1 |
45. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 2:29 PM EST
"We seem to be at a stalemate here, having reduced the argument down to beliefs versus feelings. We are far from any understanding of what you believe as opposed to what you are feeliing. In addition you state;the RC believes is that the Bible should not be up to individual interpretation. You agreed with them? Answer why you agreed with them and we will continue conversing about this one single Posting . Instead of coming up with little bits of your feelings that keep morphing down a different road...finish a query before you start adding to your already confusing set of morals and values you post on many boards expressing your feelings. I do not feel gay....I am gay ! Feelings are cute and fuzzy...being gay isn't as easy as you make it out to be.Oh, I spend day and night learning about it. I encourage you to visit http://forums.catholic.com/. There are very interesting posts by gays there is well. Actually, that is how I found this site. Well, feelings lead to beliefs. Perception leads to beliefs. There are so many things that lead us to the way we believe. I believe that the Catholic Churchs standing on this issue is the correct. But, I'm not here to tell you that i think you are going to hell, it's nobody's place to do that. The Bible should not be up to individual interpreation because you end up with over 30,000 different religions, like we have today. Again, it's not my place to tell other Christians they are in the wrong Church, because that is not how it happened for me. My morals and values are not confusing. My explanation of them may be, but they are actually very simple. You feel an attraction for someone do you not? If that someone is of the same sex, that makes you gay. Feelings are not cute and fuzzy, sadness is a feeling, hatred is a feeling, greed is a feeling and they all lead us to what we believe. Being gay isnt as easy as I make it out to be? That would be like saying, being an addict isnt as easy as you think. I have enough common sense to know that it is not easy for you to be gay. But, it's not easy the mother and father, in most cases, to find out their child is gay. 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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conservativeidealist |
46. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:06 PM EST
""The 13 colonies cam here for religious freedom. Not for freedom without religion."Well yes, in a way. It depends upon how you define religion. At dictionary.com it says religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. This definition encompasses aethism to an extent and creates a basis for inclusion of religion as a motivation for good government. Hence, church and state are separate but related. 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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conservativeidealist |
47. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:08 PM EST
Doesn't that amount to the same thing?
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conservativeidealist |
48. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:10 PM EST
This becomes an issue when the entire concept of marriage is starting to be redefined. This doesn't just affect the homosexuals anymore.
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conservativeidealist |
49. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:11 PM EST
I completely agree.
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Str8supporter |
50. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:16 PM EST
The establishment of religion clause means at least this:Neither a state nor the federal government may set up a church. Neither can pass laws that aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion... . Neither a state nor the federal government may, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between church and state. http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/about.aspx?item=about_firstamd ACLU complaint form; http://www.acluaz.org/IntakeForm.pdf 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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conservativeidealist |
51. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:16 PM EST
Actually, the Constitution only prohibits the government from making laws prohibiting the practice of religion, it does not extend the right to no persecution. All churches are persecuted to some degree.
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conservativeidealist |
52. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:21 PM EST
That is just human nature, the balance of good and bad. We try to counter the bad in politics but often it comes through anyway. It is because of morality that this country is even existant. Take George Washington for example, he set precedents for the morality for which politicians should strive. And it is admirable to stand up for what you believe in.
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conservativeidealist |
53. RE: separation of Church and State
Nov 21 2008, 7:27 PM EST
That was from a letter to the Danbury organization, later quoted in a case and thereby introduced into the legal system. That metaphor has been blown out of proportion.
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