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pozinprov |
gay on gay hate
Nov 26 2008, 12:16 PM EST
Hi, I keep hearing about the gay community and all the unity we need, how much we need to send messages to California or Washington about how we deserve equal treatment. But as a gay man living with HIV who experiences ostracism and slurs from the gay community on a regular basis, I'm hard pressed to see why I should join in. Every time I go into some kind of gay chat room, whether from gay websites or just in more mainstream media, I see numerous erroneous and dismissive, even ostracizing language toward anyone with HIV. On a regular basis, it gets back to me through gay social contacts that I'm diseased and should not be bothered with; most of this is due to word of mouth from one gay man to another. I'm told that I'm not clean, I’m diseased and should not exist, or at the very least, should just "be" something else. This would probably be a little more palatable if my disease was not what drove the gay rights movement as far as it's come in the last quarter century. I mean, you do realize that it's due to those of us who fell ill that gay rights got more visibility. Yet, despite my own health, future and career being sacrificed, along with the lives of so many friends of mine, and possibly your friends too, we are the bad guys. Can you please tell me what your organization is doing about the gay "community's" own participation in ostracism of its own members? Is this the way a community struggling to show compassion and unity treats its own? If so, can you tell me why you deserve equal rights when members of your own community are treated like garbage? Is this the "equality" that I have to look forward to? Joseph Yungk Providence, RI 22 out of 25 found this valuable. Do you?
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slianfoxob |
2. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 26 2008, 12:45 PM EST
Joseph, thank you so much for posting. I agree with Jfer that speaking up is so important. Much like it is important for all of us to begin a conversation on same-sex issues it is important to raise awareness to our own about HIV. Because it is such a personal issue I understand that it's not often discussed but to break down barriers in our own community we need your help. I've said it over and over again but education is the key to moving this project forward. Education for ourselves and the community at large. I deeply regret that you have felt ostracized by this community but please know that you are welcomed here. We hope that everyone here carries no judgement and will reach out to each other with compassion for a cause that affects us all. 6 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Russ_and_Robert |
3. RE: participation in ostracism of its own members
Nov 26 2008, 1:32 PM EST
" Can you please tell me what your organization is doing ?"Joeseph, we don't mind standing up for you; in line at the grocery store; eating in a restaurant;standing in a crowd.....or even,...forbid it, in our own house......if WE hear it.....it is meant for us to hear....and we don't let go bye bye...we confront it at every instance....we are both well known where we live for standing up and saying something when it needs saying. We have relatives that have HIV/Aids and have lost many relatives and many many many friends as well. A tear always comes to our eye when we are alone after such an occurance...reading your post.......is no different. Thanks for sharing something so personal and special that came from the heart. 6 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
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pozinprov |
4. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 26 2008, 3:37 PM EST
"Thank you for speaking up. You are this organization, and you have done something by speaking your mind.This is far from splinter groups, I see in mainstream media, gay mainstream media, hate speech and misinformation regarding HIV positive men. I have read articles that include instruction to serosort for hiv negative partners without mention that one can never really know that someone is indeed HIV negative, I also see very specific instruction to not get involved with HIV positive men from "America's Favorite Sex Columnist", a gay man, Dan Savage. ( http://www.planetout.com/health/hiv/?sernum=2813 ) I go on line and whether negative guys are looking for friends, someone to talk to or sex, and I see on post after another telling me to "be" HIV negative, some much more harsh, and all the while, everyone else on line on those sites is ignoring it as if it's an accepted part of our vernacular. Instead of a lot of replies saying "thanks for speaking up", perhaps some people should actually be saying, when these slurs do occur, "that's not cool and really inaccurate". Some of the people thanking me may very well be part of the problem. 5 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
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JENIME |
5. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 26 2008, 3:48 PM EST
I think Dan Savage needs a wake up call. Have you tried contacting him?
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pozinprov |
6. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 26 2008, 4:11 PM EST
"I think Dan Savage needs a wake up call. Have you tried contacting him?"I have contacted The Seattle Stranger on three occasions. First I called and was told that I should have read his more than ten year history to be able to say that he was inappropriate. This was after reading his article about my being a ticking viral time bomb. I don't know what his previous comments have to do with one other article where he totally went over a certain line into defamation territory, but I should not have to in order to know that something is out of line. I later started sending letters to other gay political organizations, including CC'ing some to the Seattle Stranger which he edits. I have yet to hear anything, it's been more that two weeks. I've since written asking for a response, any response, but have yet to hear anything. In reviewing his columns, there are numerous mentions of how he likes to use his column to have banter rather than information, but the banter obviously becomes abusive. Unfortunately, the mainstream media is eating him up, he looks good, sounds articulate, keeps his hostile banter in his own columns, and people end up believing him. With all this going on, while the rest of the gay community sits around and watches, I have to wonder if any association with this "community" is even worth it. 4 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
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atmasilver |
7. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 26 2008, 7:13 PM EST
Hi.I read Dan Savage once on PlanetOut.com. I cannot stand the arrogant elitist idiot. Still, I do think you are right. I don't listen to or read from people with HIV much at all, so I won't trust myself much here. Unfortunately most people run from people with even "complications." I would be honored if you would even make it your mission to educate us here. 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Goombah |
8. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 26 2008, 7:37 PM EST
"Hi,Wow! I'm rather stunned to hear that you or ANYONE should ever be treated in such an awful manner. I swear this is the first time I have ever heard of this but then again I live in the straight suburbs and have very little contact with gay life. The few gay friends i do have that live in Palm Springs and Hollywood who are HIV positive have never mentioned anything like this to me but I will certainly be asking. I don't know what to say except I'm sorry you have had this happen to you and thank you for bringing it to the board. Take Care......... 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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InclineVillager |
9. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 28 2008, 4:15 AM EST
"Wow! I'm rather stunned to hear that you or ANYONE should ever be treated in such an awful manner.Joseph, I am very sorry that has been your experience. I live in Northern Ca. around areas known for their support groups, and have not heard of this behavoir. I know that some men have been afraid to disclose for fear of rejection but I never pushed about what type of rejection they are experiencing. I started a thread wondering why prop 8 was not doing anything to recognize World AIDS day. The reason I wrote it, is because I am a Lesbian, who married my wife of 10 years in Ca. in June 2008. Since prop 8 passed I have attendted 4 protests and Marches. It occured to me that World AIDS Day was comming up and I thought with all the momentum in the community to be involved it might be a great idea to combine a prop 8 event with an HIV positive Speaker and a candlelight vigil to honor those we have lost. Dec 2st is also the Day with out ARt. I have been a test counselor for 10 years and worked in HIV prevention and ed, and I have noticed that discrimination and hetersexual oppression can leave profound pain and deep scares, emotionally, spiritually, physically. There are deffinate Health impacts to discrimination. It causes some people not to feel ok with who they are, some people cover it out with drugs or other risky behavior. This leads to HIV or Hep C infecton or another STD or some type of accident, or depression, domestic violence relationship, etc. I was hoping a positive speaker would be willing to make the connection between Prop 8 and negative health consequences in our community. It's not just a social issue, it's a physical health issue. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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pozinprov |
10. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 30 2008, 10:04 AM EST
"I'd like to thank everyone for their kind words of understanding. This is actually the first time I've ever brought it up where there's been any kind of recognition other than when brought up with strictly poz guys, who not all jump on the subject. Most just don't want to make waves, I myself just don't hang out with gay guys anymore. But this stuff really does go on and I've called and written to numerous organizations, gay rights, gay media organizations including GLAD, over twenty AIDS service organizations, owners of websites, none are interested. I am sure that gay marriage issues are on the front burner, but that this is universally ignored, I'm cynical regarding what interest gay people <want> to have, or not have, in it. This general pattern is nothing new in history, since democracy was conceived there was always a concern about the tyranny of the majority. If you look at history, when one oppressed group gets recognized or is on the verge of gaining equality, they tend to filter out the "problem" subgroups and leave them behind. Name a minority and you will almost always come up with someone they've scapegoated in their climb up the ladder. Even looking at gay subgroups shows this pattern with their fringe. 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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pozinprov |
11. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 30 2008, 10:17 AM EST
" I live in Northern Ca. around areas known for their support groups, and have not heard of this behavoir. I know that some men have been afraid to disclose for fear of rejection but I never pushed about what type of rejection they are experiencing. I started a thread wondering why prop 8 was not doing anything to recognize World AIDS day. ....If you've been working in AIDS education and prevention and have not heard of this, but maybe some fear of rejection, you've not been doing your homework or asking enough questions. I have not been to northern California, but having reviewed the behavior on line in chatrooms across the country, I've seen this as universal. I do realize there are more educated people in different parts of the country, but it's usually a matter of numbers, it's still there and yes, I've seen it in SF rooms too. Like the links I provided above, which you can follow, it's all over gay media without looking very hard. As far as prop 8 opposition groups recognizing world AIDS day, this alone shows the lack of interest. Finding a positive speaker? If I was asked I'd turn it down in protest as I don't even want to identify as gay anymore, I'm an msm. Secession from the "gay community" is actually less stressful than assimilating. I've found much more supportive, open minded and accepting heterosexuals to hang out with, the only missing component is sex with a potential of marriage--hmmm, back to an oppression that prevents me from being who I am and still not part of the "gay community's" movement.... 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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pozinprov |
12. RE: gay on gay hate
Nov 30 2008, 10:25 AM EST
" I've found much more supportive, open minded and accepting heterosexuals to hang out with, the only missing component is sex with a potential of marriage--hmmm, back to an oppression that prevents me from being who I am and still not part of the "gay community's" movement....I've got a lot to say today so... One thing I wrote to Dan Savage and others was the irony of the gay community itself pushing poz guys right back in the closet, particularly when it comes to sex. I had seen a CNN interview with him and others over that Minneapolis airport bathroom bust. Mr. Savage went on and on about how sexual oppression leads directly to this type of behavior, but he also says HIV people are not worth having relationships with. This is exactly the kind of hypocrisy that happens with a newly accepted minority, they push out those who they find to be too much of a burden. I'm sorry if HIV and AIDS is not a tasteful part of your community, or if poz guys might have a little more baggage, or if someone may become infected, but anyone can have HIV and it brought gay people out of the closet and now it's just not something others want to deal with. I, however, have to deal with it, every day, along with the slurs involved from the "gay community". If you want to do something about this, start writing other people people about it. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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InclineVillager |
13. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 2 2008, 2:47 AM EST
"If you've been working in AIDS education and prevention and have not heard of this, but maybe some fear of rejection, you've not been doing your homework or asking enough questions.Thanks so much for educating me on this subject. I guess because I am around a lot of positive people, the are accepting of other positive people in the situations I see them. I am not in the gay chat rooms with people of mixed serostatus so I am not seeing the ostrasizing that you are talking about. I have only heard about what you mention. But since I'm a lez, maybe they don't complain to me. I have heard of Poz men being afraid of rejection so either not disclosing or choosing to " serosort" (They like to use nice words like that in HIV prevention). But you might discribe it more accurately as more of a (forced discrimination rather than serosorting) I really do appreciate hearing the truth being spoken from someone who feels this strongly. Now I can ask my positive male friends if they feel this happening too. I do believe the young msm's don't consider themselves at risk and when they are being honest they are taking a lot of risks I just got back from a World AIDS day event. There were about 75 people and there should have been a lot more. Don't know how many were Poz, but it seems like only positive people and their loved ones care anymore. You don't see a lot of young negative people come out. You see agencies like us, and Positive people show up. It's sad. The message is taking a back seat. I tried everything I could, callled everyone in around town, every glbtq organization, every prop 8, Marriage Equality, leader withing 100 miles to join. Nobody would touch it. Leads me to believe you are right. Well this may not matter to you, but I think you are an important part of the community and your voice would be important at whatever table I was at. Thank you for educating me. Sincerely River 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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pozinprov |
14. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 7 2008, 2:09 PM EST
Thanks again for writing back. I think there is a wealth of input at your fingertips with your clients, just ask how and where they meet people, how they are treated, what has happened to add to the fear of rejection, and all those other social aspects of being HIV positive, whether in the gay world or the straight world. I have found some very heterosexual people that have no blinked when I've told them that I am positive, yet when I meet a gay man, the reaction is to recoil. If this takes place on line, I never hear from about 90% of them after that one message. I'm not at all surprised that World AIDS day was not what was expected as my suppoert from the gay community is so far below what should be expected I want little to do with it. If I'm an important part of the "community", and every single person that feels that way is valuable, but I expect to be treated like a human being by the gay community at large, but that is just not happening. We need to be confronting this issue at every turn. Remember that phrase Silence=Death? Too many poz guys are silent now accepting their status, not as a death sentence due to disease, but a social death within the gay community. If you look through history, every civilisation, social groups, religions, political parties and governments have their scapegoats and the gay community is now no exception. I just refuse to be pushed down because they want to get on a level playing field with heterosexuals. I've already done that found a level playing field and managed to not climb on the back of anyone else. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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PULL |
15. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 17 2008, 5:33 PM EST
unfortunately the gay culture is about the young and beautiful and money that can be made. If you are poor, not so handsome or lovely and not so young.. no one cares unless there is a free cocktail .. I am also HIV + and remember the strives that gays who have died from aids have made to make living in 2009 and so on a better place for gays today. I live in Fort lauderdale and I am shamed how the community cares so little
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PULL |
16. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 17 2008, 5:38 PM EST
Worlds aids day got so little feed back this year and I fear every year it gets less and less attention. The young beautiful people do not know about the 80's when Aids was a battle for the rest of us...because most of the young and beautiful were in baby wipes... and sucking formulas. --what does this mean ? It means that more and more gays are going to be infected with a super strain virus because no one is learning from history... super strain viruses are not easily fixed.
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PublicEmily |
17. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 21 2008, 2:18 AM EST
Thank you for posting this.As I am a woman I don't get the stigma of the HIV/AIDS stereotype that gay males get... Just the "I'm a horrible mother and undeservign of a uterus" stereotype. I rant and rave, and sometime peacefully speak with so many people about the stereotypes. I cannot count how many times I see the half naked gay man image in the media, gay media! Gay clubs and "chatlines" always portray these pretty younger men as sexual figures. The same goes for HIV/AIDS. It's a disgusting thing that more people are not correctly and adequately educated about the illness. There are organizations out there, and I am one person who will continue to use my voice to dispell myths, degrading or otherwise. the most powerful thing I have is accurate knowledge and a voice. I am an acitvist for everything I know to be wrong, down to the words I choose to say, I don't think it's enough, but it's all I can do. Horizontal oppression is the MOST insideous hurtful thing that can happen to a group of people. On a slightly random note: Gay women are at the highest risk for obtaining HPV, all because we generally don't use protection. HPV is also the hottest new disease to make drugs for "One Less...Gardisil". I know that this disease is not at all in the same as HIV/AIDS but damn, if we're gonna ostracize gay men for AIDS then we'd better do it do it the gay women (myself included) who are infected all the curious/straight women with possible cancer! ;) 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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MiDerecho! |
18. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 21 2008, 12:31 PM EST
"This is far from splinter groups, I see in mainstream media, gay mainstream media, hate speech and misinformation regarding HIV positive men. I have read articles that include instruction to serosort for hiv negative partners without mention that one can never really know that someone is indeed HIV negative, I also see very specific instruction to not get involved with HIV positive men from "America's Favorite Sex Columnist", a gay man, Dan Savage. ( http://www.planetout.com/health/hiv/?sernum=2813 )Manhunt is notorious for this type of behavior. This is one of the reasons why I closed my account on there. Discrimination against People Living with HIV/AIDS (PLWHA), has become totally acceptable. I've come out here as an Afro-Latino male, you've encouraged me to come out a POZ as well, thank you for that. When I was on MH and other sites, my never offered my sero-status as it didn't seem anyone's business but the person I was hooking up with (which btw was frustratingly very few and far in between), simply because I thought it was everyone responsibility to take care of themselves. In other words, if one is having sex with people, anonymously or not, it's not solely their responsibility to play safely. It's the responsibility of all. Along with this issue and the allowed racism on the site, and that the owner were reportedly Republican supporters, I decided that my money will not go to them. I sent MH emails about what was being allowed on the site and got "clonish" remarks about how everyone has the "right" of expression on the site....BULL! Just stop going to site...as well as planetout.com. Or better yet write and tell them why you're going to stop visiting their site. Start spreading the word. You'll see how quickly Dan changes his tune. Take heart, brother. Feel supported here. I am only a subscriber, not a moderator or a part of JTI, but I do feel this to be a safe place to voice my opinion, at least that, if nothing else. I do thank you. :) W 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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wonderwillow |
19. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 21 2008, 11:14 PM EST
This thread is SO SO SO important. Thank you for starting it pozinprov. I'm very encouraged by the remarks above to see how supportive users of this wiki are. To echo the last comment from MiDerecho! this is a safe place to voice your feelings.JTI is a brand new organization. While so far we are known mostly for getting people together, there will also be an educational side launched soon- with the goal of not just educating those outside the LGBTQI community but those within it as well. The issue of addressing POZ phobia is definitely something that is very dear to my heart. You can count on us finding ways to bring people together and educate around it to lessen the division it causes in our community. That said- I would LOVE to hear your suggestions. Many of my closest advisors have been working in HIV/AIDS treatment and prevention for years, so I know I'll have lots of advice, but I'd really like to hear the thoughts of the people who will be participating and benefitting. You can respond to this thread or email me at willow@jointheimpact.com Please keep this thread going. These conversations are absolutely necessary. Willow 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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InclineVillager |
20. RE: gay on gay hate
Dec 23 2008, 1:31 AM EST
"Manhunt is notorious for this type of behavior. This is one of the reasons why I closed my account on there. Discrimination against People Living with HIV/AIDS (PLWHA), has become totally acceptable. I've come out here as an Afro-Latino male, you've encouraged me to come out a POZ as well, thank you for that.Since I myself have not been on Manhunt please englighten me as to how they discriminate. Is it because they ask you to put your status on your profile, or does something else happen. Since I work the side of prevention education and we want men to be able to find supportive groups social, what good ideas do you have? I'd like to ask honestly if this would be a good or bad idea. Would this be helpful or ostrasitizing? Say an AIDS treatment agency in a rural area set up it's on private members only social net work site. That way you could easily connect with men for fun and activities and not have to worry about discrimination, or rejection. Would that be a good thing, or would you find it offensive? Help us out? Love to here your feed back. Do you find this valuable? |