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aaglaas
aaglaas
A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 26 2009, 1:14 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 26 2009, 1:14 PM EDT
For those out there who are combatting the hatred and discrimination that originates from both ignorance, and religious fanaticism, here is a Biblical same-sex love story you can share with those people. I believe the attention to detail concerning the original Hebrew words are beyond any rational dispute..

Here is the link to my new blog on this: http://biblical-lovestory.wetpaint.com/
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Griznut3030
Griznut3030
1. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 26 2009, 5:20 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 26 2009, 5:20 PM EDT
Any time some bigot starts with biblical homophobia on the Huffington I simply post the link to christian same sex marriage was a rite. http://www.colfaxrecord.com/detail/91429.html
They quiet down right after they read it. I hope yours is the same story :o)
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aaglaas
aaglaas
2. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 26 2009, 6:41 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 26 2009, 6:41 PM EDT
I do love Mr. Boswell's contributions!! :-) Do you find this valuable?    

Goombah
3. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 28 2009, 7:21 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 28 2009, 7:21 PM EDT
LOL, I can't wait to include this link to my Holiday Greeting cards this year!!
My kind of Holiday Story! Great Blog Pal.
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aaglaas
aaglaas
4. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 28 2009, 8:44 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 28 2009, 8:44 PM EDT
"LOL, I can't wait to include this link to my Holiday Greeting cards this year!!
My kind of Holiday Story! Great Blog Pal."
:-) Thanks Goombah! I hope more and more churches admit the factuality of the translation of this story, and it pretty much shoots out any foundation to their stance that our love for each other is any less beautiful, deep, true, and good than a similar 'heterosexual' love..
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atmasilver
atmasilver
5. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 29 2009, 12:21 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 29 2009, 12:21 AM EDT
I can't say I'm enough of a scholar to wage battles over the most "correct" translation. Different bibles convey different tones about David and Jonathan and each religion thinks their telling is the most accurate. Personally I have never interpreted the story as explicitly saying their relationship is a sexual or erotic one, only that they were probably both gay. However, the power of the Bible is that it will say such things to you from time to time--the revelation that God affirms people's own homosexuality through the Bible is something that cannot be easily dismissed.

Since the author of that blog posting is not a Christian I think he should mind his own business.
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pngwnz
pngwnz
6. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 29 2009, 6:25 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 29 2009, 6:27 AM EDT
"
Since the author of that blog posting is not a Christian I think he should mind his own business."
I might be misunderstanding your comment so I have decided that it is better to ask. What do you mean by this comment, please? This is not in any way negative nor is it any type of challenge - I'm just a little confused by your comment. Thank-you.
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atmasilver
atmasilver
7. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 29 2009, 1:26 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 29 2009, 1:26 PM EDT
"I might be misunderstanding your comment so I have decided that it is better to ask. What do you mean by this comment, please? This is not in any way negative nor is it any type of challenge - I'm just a little confused by your comment. Thank-you."
The author makes an authoritative statement about the correct translation of that particular passage. In other words, far from merely pointing out a same sex love story, he is in effect saying that certain versions of the Bible are false and that his interpretation is the correct one.

He has to do that, because there are many translations and interpretations that make it impossible to infer a same sex relationship, rendering his entire argument moot. This isn't like every single version of the Bible saying that God created Adam and Eve.

But when you use a particular translation or interpretation to argue a doctrinal point, that's something that's really a Christian vs. Christian matter in my opinion, unless of course he's a Muslim or a Jew. I do not believe a non-Christian should be lecturing a Christian religion on the correct way to write their Bible or the correct way to read their Bible, because that is a matter of faith. I find it offensive enough when another Christian tells me that I'm reading the wrong Bible (the feeling is mutual, but I consider it un-American). While things do get lost in translation, I strongly believe that the Bible conveys truth to people universally regardless of time and language. The truth is not conveyed secondhand by non-Christian scholars.
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atmasilver
atmasilver
8. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 29 2009, 1:34 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 29 2009, 1:34 PM EDT
The whole problem with this movement against Christian churches that are against gay marriage and so on is that there is no faith in it. Religion needs to cancel out religion. You don't cancel out religion by saying another religion is wrong. That's intrusive, a complete waste of time, and it speaks to a certain insecurity, I think. Religions can only be changed from within. You also don't cancel out religion by ignoring it and saying religion is irrelevant. You cancel out religion by muddying the waters and saying your religion is right, creating a plurality of religious viewpoints. Then you have to dismiss religion.

I do think this is a relevant story, but the author's suggestion of how to use it is wrong. It needs to be taught to gays, not to conservative Christians (who already know it).
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pngwnz
pngwnz
9. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 29 2009, 3:54 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 29 2009, 3:57 PM EDT
maybe those of us who are lgbt and are mentioning other perceptions of religion/bible - are actually sharing (in a positive way) more ideas where we as part of the gay community are shown in a positive way in the scriptures. discussing or presenting a passage which is about lgbt is not saying something bad about another passage, a christian denomination or another religion. yes, there are many translations of the original books/scrolls of the bible and that's part of the mystery of it all. they are all translations. the original scrolls of the old testament are usually aramaic (ancient hebrew), and that language doesn't translate directly into any of today's languages. the problems we've been experiencing is not necessarily about the version of the bible - the problem is how individuals have chosen to translate specific passages out of context of the original scroll in the original language.

this topic actually has quite a bit to do with our rights as a community. when an anti-gay protester misuses a biblical quote - it can feel very good to know just how wrong they are.

and by the way - i am a lesbian jew. (i add this because of your own mention of jews and muslims.)
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aaglaas
aaglaas
10. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 30 2009, 12:41 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 30 2009, 12:41 PM EDT
That is not a simple difference of translation, such as the difference between "He hath spoken to them" or "He spoke to them"... it is focusing exclusively on the Hebrew words concerning the type of 'love' they felt for each other using Strong's lexicon which theologians across the world use. My not being Christian does not change the implications of that. It is the translation that all churches who have abandoned the mistranslations of the past, and who fully welcome gays into their congregations are using. As to 'minding my own business'... I and any other gay person have had a lifetime's worth of certain 'Christians' and certain congregations not minding their business and attempting to deny us both our humanity and our freedom. The time has come to reverse that trend. 2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    

Goombah
11. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 30 2009, 1:38 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 30 2009, 1:38 PM EDT
aaglaas AMEND to that bro! You are right on and there are many of us on this board and in our community that want you to keep on speaking up. I really liked this part of your post and will definitely reuse it.

I and any other gay person have had a lifetime's worth of certain 'Christians' and certain congregations not minding their business and attempting to deny us both our humanity and our freedom. The time has come to reverse that trend.
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Hothulagurlzzz
Hothulagurlzzz
12. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 30 2009, 6:47 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 30 2009, 6:48 PM EDT
What a beautiful short story to read about =]

I posted the image of the lovely Christian gay couple on this site: http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com/photo/4772302/When+Same-Sex+Marriage+Was+a+Christian+Rite
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atmasilver
atmasilver
13. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 30 2009, 10:30 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 30 2009, 10:30 PM EDT
"That is not a simple difference of translation, such as the difference between "He hath spoken to them" or "He spoke to them"... it is focusing exclusively on the Hebrew words concerning the type of 'love' they felt for each other using Strong's lexicon which theologians across the world use. My not being Christian does not change the implications of that. It is the translation that all churches who have abandoned the mistranslations of the past, and who fully welcome gays into their congregations are using. As to 'minding my own business'... I and any other gay person have had a lifetime's worth of certain 'Christians' and certain congregations not minding their business and attempting to deny us both our humanity and our freedom. The time has come to reverse that trend."
Your not being Christian in my view speaks to your authority to say that some Christian churches espouse a theologically correct doctrine and some espouse a theologically incorrect doctrine, that some use the correct Bible and some use the incorrect Bible. I really don't see much justification for that. I say pick your Bible, be happy with it, and let everyone else be happy with theirs. The idea that some religions are better than others is I think a dangerous view. But if you don't like certain Christians using their Bible for social activism, why don't you just focus on defeating them on the secular battlefield?
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atmasilver
atmasilver
14. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 30 2009, 10:41 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 30 2009, 10:41 PM EDT
"maybe those of us who are lgbt and are mentioning other perceptions of religion/bible - are actually sharing (in a positive way) more ideas where we as part of the gay community are shown in a positive way in the scriptures. discussing or presenting a passage which is about lgbt is not saying something bad about another passage, a christian denomination or another religion. yes, there are many translations of the original books/scrolls of the bible and that's part of the mystery of it all. they are all translations. the original scrolls of the old testament are usually aramaic (ancient hebrew), and that language doesn't translate directly into any of today's languages. the problems we've been experiencing is not necessarily about the version of the bible - the problem is how individuals have chosen to translate specific passages out of context of the original scroll in the original language.

this topic actually has quite a bit to do with our rights as a community. when an anti-gay protester misuses a biblical quote - it can feel very good to know just how wrong they are.

and by the way - i am a lesbian jew. (i add this because of your own mention of jews and muslims.)"
I didn't find that blog's editorializing to be very pacifist, but okay.

Again, I have to ask, who is it that decides a particular passage was translated right or wrong from the original text? I am not budging on this. It has to be a religious authority. Each religion believes they have it right. A person saying something from an accurate reading of their own Bible translation is not misusing a biblical quote. While I don't pretend to understand how a religion decides how a particular translation best conveys the meaning of the original text, I'd be surprised if translations don't meet with some kind of approval from the religious authority as a whole that legitimizes the translated Bible as God's word.
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aaglaas
aaglaas
15. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 31 2009, 11:23 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 31 2009, 11:23 AM EDT
"Your not being Christian in my view speaks to your authority to say that some Christian churches espouse a theologically correct doctrine and some espouse a theologically incorrect doctrine, that some use the correct Bible and some use the incorrect Bible. I really don't see much justification for that. I say pick your Bible, be happy with it, and let everyone else be happy with theirs. The idea that some religions are better than others is I think a dangerous view. But if you don't like certain Christians using their Bible for social activism, why don't you just focus on defeating them on the secular battlefield?"
I don't mind what anyone's spiritual life is... unless they use that spiritual view to interfere with mine or other's lives in any way. We are focusing on defeating them through legislation, but we won't hesitate to point out their own hypocrisies if they attempt to use them upon us.
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aaglaas
aaglaas
16. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 31 2009, 11:33 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 31 2009, 12:14 PM EDT
It's not anything mysterious, especially since same-sex warrior relationships were not only common at the time, but revered throughout many cultures. I suggest reading the epic 'Gilgamesh' which was known by every civilization in the Middle East at the time, including the Israelites... it simply boils down to common sense: "For those who will bend over backwards in an attempt to say it was only a 'friendship', I'd like them to share how many well-known examples they can provide of heterosexual male 'friends' making 3 sacred covenants of 'love' and devotion to each other... disrobing completely and giving their clothes, weapons, and heart to their friend... having the father of one friend trying to kill his son's friend solely because they were 'friends', while also stating to the other friend that his love for him "surpasses the love of any woman."

By their reasoning... there should be hundreds of similar detailed, explicit, and well-known heterosexual examples readily available for them to contribute.








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aaglaas
aaglaas
17. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 31 2009, 11:38 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 31 2009, 11:38 AM EDT
The Epic of Gilgamesh is, perhaps, the oldest written story on Earth. It comes to us from Ancient Sumeria, and was originally written on 12 clay tablets in cunieform script. It is about the adventures of the historical King of Uruk (somewhere between 2750 and 2500 BCE).


Gilgamesh got up and revealed the dream, saying to his mother:
"Mother, I had a dream last night.
Stars of the sky appeared,
and some kind of meteorite(?) of Anu fell next to me.
I tried to lift it but it was too mighty for me,
I tried to turn it over but I could not budge it.
The Land of Uruk was standing around it,
the whole land had assembled about it,
the populace was thronging around it,
the Men clustered about it,
and kissed its feet as if it were a little baby (!).
I loved it and embraced it as a wife.
I laid it down at your feet,
and you made it compete with me."
The mother of Gilgamesh, the wise, all-knowing, said to her Lord;
Rimat-Ninsun, the wise, all-knowing, said to Gilgamesh:
"As for the stars of the sky that appeared
and the meteorite(?) of Anu which fell next to you,
you tried to lift but it was too mighty for you,
you tried to turn it over but were unable to budge it,
you laid it down at my feet,
and I made it compete with you,
and you loved and embraced it as a wife."
"There will come to you a mighty man, a comrade who saves his friend--
he is the mightiest in the land, he is strongest,
his strength is mighty as the meteorite(!) of Anu!
You loved him and embraced him as a wife;
and it is he who will repeatedly save you.
Your dream is good and propitious!"
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Katherine.activist
Katherine.activist
18. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 31 2009, 6:46 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 31 2009, 6:46 PM EDT
"For those out there who are combatting the hatred and discrimination that originates from both ignorance, and religious fanaticism, here is a Biblical same-sex love story you can share with those people. I believe the attention to detail concerning the original Hebrew words are beyond any rational dispute..

Here is the link to my new blog on this: http://biblical-lovestory.wetpaint.com/
"
I think you might want to clean it up a bit. It was kinda hard to read.
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atmasilver
atmasilver
19. RE: A Biblical same-sex love story..
Mar 31 2009, 11:14 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 31 2009, 11:14 PM EDT
"It's not anything mysterious, especially since same-sex warrior relationships were not only common at the time, but revered throughout many cultures. I suggest reading the epic 'Gilgamesh' which was known by every civilization in the Middle East at the time, including the Israelites... it simply boils down to common sense: "For those who will bend over backwards in an attempt to say it was only a 'friendship', I'd like them to share how many well-known examples they can provide of heterosexual male 'friends' making 3 sacred covenants of 'love' and devotion to each other... disrobing completely and giving their clothes, weapons, and heart to their friend... having the father of one friend trying to kill his son's friend solely because they were 'friends', while also stating to the other friend that his love for him "surpasses the love of any woman."

By their reasoning... there should be hundreds of similar detailed, explicit, and well-known heterosexual examples readily available for them to contribute.








"
Actually I seem to recall my (Orthodox Jewish) college religion teacher saying something about covenants between fathers and sons including something like the son placing his hands on the inside of the elder's thiegh.

Let's see, I'm a video game nut, so the example I would pick is Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms-based games. They swore an oath to become blood brothers and so on. I believe they all had wives, too. My explanation is that warriors are very odd people.
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